To Materialists director Celine Song, a "great act of bravery is saying yes to love"

The A.V. Club spoke to the Past Lives filmmaker about her goal to bring respect to the dramedy/rom-com genre.

To Materialists director Celine Song, a

Celine Song is a sucker for a film about feelings. As a playwright, screenwriter, and director, the Korean-born Canadian found her muse in our hearts—she revels in discovering how they steer us away from hurt, or provide us a wellspring of endless bravery as we seek a romantic match. With her second feature, Materialists, Song doubles down. Past Lives was a gauzy, almost nostalgic meditation on how we see our past relationships in light of our current love. Materialists is more blunt in exploring the roots of matrimonial connections and how we’ve bastardized that pursuit even more in the digital age by squeezing out every ounce of serendipity or wonder from the process in order to successfully tick the most qualities off on our personal attribute checklists.

That’s not a place where the unabashedly romantic Song lives. When The A.V. Club asked her what book or film profoundly opened up her creative self as a teenager, she offers, “Probably Demian by Hermann Hesse.” The 1919 novel is far from light reading, but its exploration of the human struggle to find self-realization certainly remains a theme in Song’s own yearning to deconstruct our messy selves.

“Somebody told me once that Hermann Hesse should be encountered as a young person because it means a lot at that time,” she says. “It’s the first time that I had a sense of what the vastness of life could be like. It’s very much about, how do you decide what kind of a life you want to live? Because everybody else tells you that you should live one way or the other, it doesn’t mean that’s the way you should live. You can invent your own way.”

Song has been dedicated to finding that path for her own life and career by ingesting a wide array of influences that she’s expressed through outlets like fan fiction and video games like The Sims. The romantic drama and rom-com genres have always been near and dear to her emotional vocabulary. 

“I would watch every single Victorian romance possible,” she says. “If you are in a corset, I’ll watch it. It’s one of those genres where it’s deceptively some of the deepest, most incredibly enlivening cinema. I rewatch those movies, over and over.” 

She also cites the works of Nora Ephron, Billy Wilder, and James L. Brooks as foundational. “All their movies, I feel like I grew up so obsessed with them and obsessed with those characters, and then the story, and also what they have to say about love.”

When we point out the parallels in Materialists to James Ivory’s 1986 adaptation of E.M. Forster’s A Room With A View, and Song lights up at the comparison. “That’s one of those references that we were talking about when I was making the movie with all my departments,” she confirms. “It’s so much more about this woman at the center of it who is making a decision for her life. Those are my favorite stories, where it’s about a woman who is having so much authority and making decisions for her life. It’s about accepting love when it’s offered to you, which is a brave thing to do. It feels like a simple thing, but you get to see and experience, in A Room With A View and Materialists, these women whose great act of bravery is saying yes to love.”

But before she could clearly create her own version of these emotional stories as a writer-director for film, Song says there were stepping-stone career experiences that helped consolidate her worldview and shape her individual voice. In 2021, she was part of the season-one writers’ room for Prime Video’s series adaptation of The Wheel Of Time under showrunner Rafe Judkins.

“I learned so much about leadership from Rafe Judkins,” Song says. “I learned everything about leadership when you’re running a show, or in my case, running a film. So much of it is about responsibility. He taught me about the responsibility of the chief creative person, to make sure that it’s good. I learned so much from that, as an artist, holistically.”

As a writer working for a massive audience, she says it was like being in a storytelling boot camp. “We had an amazing room, and Rafe is an amazing leader, so it was a perfect experience working on that first season where I learned everything I know when it comes to what a global audience is like. What will get an audience to invest in the story?”

Then she ran a gauntlet of a year in 2023, releasing, promoting, and ingesting the response to her much-loved directorial debut, Past Lives. “I was meeting so many people through Past Lives, people who watched it and felt something for it, and you realize it’s such a completely universal theme and concern. Love is the most universal thing, and it’s the one very dramatic, one extraordinary thing you do, even if you’re the most ordinary person in the world.”

“Something that I learned is that there’s no there’s no gender, there’s no age, when it comes to, are you obsessed with love?” she continues. “Is this something that you want to figure out? And the truth is, it always is.”

While Past Lives and Materialists are tonally very different, Song says their emotional through-line is not. “When you’re making a movie about feelings, because that’s what I do and that’s what these two movies are about, it’s all about what it feels like to be a person. Thinking that way, I am interested in talking about [what’s] for real. And of course, it’s going to have something that is quite cynical and practical in it, because that’s what it’s like to be a modern person.”

That brings up her six-month stint as a matchmaker back in 2016. She walked away from the intensive experience sobered by what she heard straight from the mouths of her clients. It impacted her worldview so profoundly she held onto it and used it to inspire her screenplay for Materialists

“Of course, there’s a whole industry trying to quantify what dating is. But then you have to remember what dating is in pursuit of, right?” Song says the introduction of algorithms and a strictly business-forward approach to matchmaking is to service the furthest things from love—just more wealth, more power, more fame. 

“What is this game in pursuit of? It’s love. And love is this incredible, ancient mystery that does not have answers,” she emphasizes. “It’s a mystery that will not be solved. So what are you trying to do, turning to the algorithm and numbers, for this thing that, unfortunately, we do not know why it happens, or how it happens. It’s a miracle when it happens and then it’s easy. But when it’s not happening, it’s very difficult. Dating is very difficult.”

Dakota Johnson’s character Lucy is Song’s representation of that pragmatism swimming in a romantic world. “Lucy says, ‘Dating is very hard. But love is easy,’ which I completely believe,” Songs says. She says she walked away from matchmaking understanding how fruitless it was pursuing a litany of requirements which aren’t how you ultimately come to love. Materialists is her rumination on that impossible path, and she takes Lucy on a journey where she comes to her own realizations about her life’s work, and what the heart needs. 

“In the beginning of the film, she’s an expert in dating. She’s supposed to be somebody who is in control of, not her client’s love life, but she believes, hopefully, her own,” Song says. “She has all these things that she believes make her really smart. And then over the course of the film, all of those things break down. The math explodes. By the end of the film, she’s making what, in the beginning of the film, she would have considered a very stupid decision.”

“Of course, the most romantic line in the whole film is, ‘How would you like to make a very bad financial decision?’ It sounds like it’s a line out of a movie about Wall Street, and not a very romantic line,” Song says. “But in this film, it’s a completely romantic thing because of where Lucy begins. She begins somewhere where she feels like she’s an expert in the game and then she ends up making a decision that love makes fools of all of us, right? But at the end of the day, we know the truth, which is that because of true love, when someone offers love to you, you have to take it. It’s the only intelligent decision that she ever makes in the film, right? You’re seeing the reverse of what she believes is wisdom.”

By coming to love through an initial cynic, Song also hopes she can dispel the dismissiveness that has taken hold of a genre, one that calls romance “lightweight” or “throwaway.” It’s why she includes a scene between Lucy and her former lover John (Chris Evans) where he casually dismisses her career in matchmaking.

“John goes, ‘It’s just girl shit,’ in regards to her chosen career. ‘You’re not a drone pilot or a gun lobbyist. You don’t work at Shell or McKinsey. It’s just dating, not serious.’ And then, of course, Lucy rebukes, ‘Oh, right. You think it’s just girl shit,'” Song says, documenting her in-film defense of the genre. “I think it’s so funny relegating the concerns about love, the concerns about feelings, the concerns about what it’s like to live and trying to love, about dismissing movies as ‘chick flicks.’ First of all, you’re dismissing ‘chicks’ as not being serious people. You’re also dismissing how important love and romance is for serious people, too. I feel bad for serious people that they’re not allowed to be concerned with romance.

“But I understand it on some level, because it’s very humbling,” Song continues. “Love makes fools of all of us. It’s a humiliating, surrendering, humbling thing. It’s so much easier to walk around like, ‘No, I’m really smart. I’m really cynical.’ It’s fun to be cynical, right? It’s so fun to be like, ‘I don’t even believe in love.’ It’s spicy. But the truth is that there’s such bravery, and there’s such an open-heartedness to saying, ‘Yeah, but I want that. I want love and believe in it.’ That, to me, is the really brave thing. And that is something that everybody, I hope, has in the generosity of their heart to be able to say that, ‘Love is what makes life worth living. And I’m in pursuit of it.'”

With Materialists now out in the world, Song says she’s already percolating her next story about feelings. “I will tell you all about it when I’m ready to talk about it,” she teases. When prodded about the specific feeling she’s going to pursue, she says it’s always going to be about love. 

“Love and life are the things that are always going to fascinate me, because it’s the one place where I feel like I’m completely clueless, in a beautiful way,” she admits. “I’m a director. I get asked 100 questions, and I answer them, so I live my life walking around like I’m smart about everything. But the truth is—which I think is still true about modern professional life—you have to walk around like you know what you’re doing. When it comes to love, it’s the one place where you can completely let go of control. You can surrender. You can allow yourself to be a fool. What a beautiful place, a place where I can rest.”

 
Join the discussion...