In
January, Christian Lander was just another wage slave at a California
interactive ad agency. Then his blog, "Stuff White People Like," a
tongue-in-cheek comprehensive list of everything left-wing, upper-middle-class
Caucasians enjoy (from The
Wire and McSweeney's to eating outside and
self-importance) grew exponentially in popularity to the point that it amassed
20 million hits by the end of March and caught the eye of Random House. Seizing
on the site's popularity, the publisher had Lander expand the site into a
211-page, 150-item book, Stuff
White People Like: The Definitive Guide To The Unique Taste Of Millions, which was released in early
July. Random House isn't the only one who's taken notice: Lander is slated to
appear on Late
Night With Conan O'Brien on September 5. While temporarily on leave from his day job and
on a full-blown publicity tour, Lander spoke to The A.V. Club about being an asshole with a
blog, not deserving all this attention, and accidentally appealing to old
people.
The
A.V. Club: What's the response been like on the tour so far?
Christian
Lander:
Unbelievable. It's still brand new, so it could all fall apart in Chicago—but
the first stop I did, I was in Toronto. And it was just for media stuff, and it
was my hometown, so it was really kind of nice to go back. But it was just
radio interviews, and some TV stuff, and print stuff. The first speaking one I
did was in Boston, at the Harvard bookstore. And it was fantastic. A ton of
people showed up, more than I was expecting. More than they were expecting.
Because I'm just this asshole with a blog,
they were like, "It's not going to be that many." But the place was packed.
People were standing, and people were sitting in the aisles [with a] totally
blocked view, just to hear what was going on. It was jam-packed. And then from
there, I spoke at Google, which was fucking awesome. It was really cool to get
invited in. They have this big wall of the people they've brought in before:
Obama, Hillary Clinton, Gorbachev, the Dalai Lama, and Bill Clinton.
AVC:
Did they put your picture up there?
CL: No. [Laughs.] No, I didn't
get on the wall.
AVC:
You didn't even scrawl your name up there?
CL: I was just too overwhelmed
by the Google-ness, right? I have a thing where I take a picture—I regret
not doing it at the Harvard one—but I take a picture of the crowd before
[speaking]. Because I can't believe that many people showed up, and I want to
be able to show my wife and friends, "Look! People actually showed up for me!"
So that went really well. I was in D.C., at Politics And Prose, this bookstore
just outside the downtown court. And 300 people showed up, it was packed again.
A lot of old people too, which is awesome, but
they loved it. Like, 85-year-olds. They loved it. I was sort of like, "That's
amazing!" Because when I wrote the book and the blog, I was speaking as much as
I could to my experience, our generational experience, and it is amazing that
it transcends.
AVC:
Are older people liking it for the same reason younger people like it?
CL: Yeah I think so. They find
it funny, simple as that.
AVC:
So it's for all ages, for the ages?
CL: No, no. Certainly not for
the ages—it's from the Internet. Nothing on the Internet is for the year.
AVC:
Is it going to last for the rest of the year?
CL: [Laughs.] No.
AVC:
Since it blew up, you've been saying, "This is it. This is probably going to
kill it."
CL: Yeah. It's still fun for
me, and I was just…This week, because with press
requests and the tour, and just the weird stress of it coming out, I've been
really stressed. "Is it going to do well? Could I have done more?" It was
really tough for me to even write anything, 'cause I spent all this time
worrying and moving around doing meetings and stuff, so I wrote one this week.
I'll keep doing it as long as it's still fun to me. Internet shelf life is
worse than a banana.
AVC:
So how eagerly will you go on Jerry Springer in 20 years, or
"Where are they now?" segments with the Star Wars kid?
CL: And the Tron guy. Yeah.
AVC:
Have you heard from any of those other Internet sensations?
CL: Well, actually, all of
them. There's a conference in Boston called ROFLCon. It was amazing. So I was
invited, along with Tron guy, the Where The Hell Is
Matt? guy, the One Red Paperclip guy, the xkcd comics guy.
AVC:
Lonelygirl15?
CL: She wasn't real. She wasn't
true. She wasn't of the people, and believe me, the conference was "the people." But it was amazing. The I
Can Has Cheezburger? guys were there. Those guys are hilarious. They were
awesome.
We were all there in one place, and we talked
to everybody. And it's so funny—a lot of the people on Springer have always had the desire to
be a celebrity, and are desperate to reclaim it. Everyone at that conference
who made it, none of them thought anything was going to happen from what they
were doing. They were all like, "I did it because it was fun for me."
AVC:
But a lot of people nowadays are consciously trying to become Internet
sensations. There are how-to articles about it.
CL: I know. Which is also really
weird, I'm like, "Dude, I'm just an asshole with a blog." 'Cause my dad, he had
a copy of one of the books that he wanted me to sign for one of his friend's
children, like a 17-year-old. He goes, "He wants to be just like you." And I
was like, "What?" Just the weirdest thing that I'd heard. At Christmastime,
nobody that I knew was dying to be an associate manager of corporate
communications. And now?
It's the funniest thing in the world, it's
just so strange. Everyone at that conference just gets it. They have a good
sense about themselves, they don't take themselves too seriously. And they know
that—it's an interesting medium. Because it's much less regulated in a
lot of ways. So your fame is weird. And it was so funny to be there. At that
conference, everyone there was a star, because everyone knew who they were.
But everyone at ROFLCon has a sense of humor
about themselves. And they're like, "I'm Internet famous." No one considers it
a particularly insane accomplishment, they're just like, "I'm really lucky I
get to do this. I'm gonna ride it as long as I can."
AVC:
Is all this attention warranted?
CL: No. It got popular for
whatever reason. And it didn't get popular because it was crammed down the
throats of people by some corporation or some mass-media thing.
AVC:
You started this in January, and no offense, but it's completely absurd where
it is now.
CL: Yeah, exactly. You're right.
I agree. That's what keeps me grounded in all this. It was just this amazing
thing that caught on that I didn't intend to catch on. So I think when it comes
to the attention, I don't feel like any of it is deserved, right? It's not like
I set out to achieve this goal. It just happened, and it's amazing. And I'm
enjoying it as much as I possibly can. I don't feel like anything in the world
is owed to me, and I'm just enjoying everything that's coming with it.
Internet famous. [Laughs.] It's a fucking
ridiculous fluke. It's a new phenomenon, it's bizarre, but it's better than
reality-TV fame. Just because whatever it is, the people did themselves.
Whereas reality TV, they owe whomever the producer is of the show, the exposure,
and marketing. It's a little bit better. But no, you're not going to see me in Us Weekly anytime soon.
AVC:
How will you know when the site's run its course?
CL: I don't know. I'll know it
when it happens, I guess. When it stops being fun for me will probably be it.
And it's still fun. I think it'll probably happen. This can't keep up forever.
And it won't keep up forever. At some point I'll be like, "All right. It was a
good run. And it's over."
AVC:
What if it keeps getting bigger?
CL: No, impossible.
AVC:
Your website says you're a comedian. What kind?
CL: A struggling one. I'm not
really.
AVC:
Is it Jeff Foxworthy-type stuff? "If you do this, then you might be a white
person?" Or is it unrelated to that material?
CL: Possibly. It's a little
different than that, though. I don't want to be an actor. I don't wanna be a
stand-up comedian. I just wanna be a comedy writer. Nothing beyond that.
AVC:
Do you have any ideas for shows?
CL: Yeah, I have tons of ideas
for shows. I'm still working them out. I have some, they're just not fully
baked. But then I have half-baked ideas for shows. Like, I have an idea for a
show called Fat
Guyz. With a
zed. It's about two fat guys.
AVC:
What happens to them?
CL: Whatever happens. They ride
scooters. They fucking—they date women. They have problems. [Laughs.]
AVC:
Your site's an acquired taste. For white people who don't like it, what's the
most common reason?
CL: There's a couple. One of
them is, "I'm white, and I don't like anything on this list. So I find this
very offensive." I always find that particularly funny, because it's like, "So
you're offended that I've made a generalization about your race that doesn't
apply to you? I think every other minority on earth has been through this in
the last thousand years, so good. I'm glad you feel that way." And then the
other thing is people who get offended by the whole idea of stereotypes in any
capacity. I got an e-mail from someone in Canada who reported the site to a
hate-crimes commission. Actually submitted it and said that they wanted to get
the Canadian government involved to shut it down as a hate crime.
AVC:
Did anything come of that?
CL: No. One of my commentators
left this; it was the best comment they ever said: "There's a big difference
between these stereotypes and other stereotypes. The difference is, white
people don't get denied jobs for liking yoga. These aren't hateful stereotypes,
they're not demeaning stereotypes. There's a big difference in where it's
going. There's not a hateful aspect." So I think that sums it up perfectly,
about why those people are wrong when they get upset about it.
AVC:
A lot of angry people like it, too, though, including white supremacists. The
white-supremacist forum Stormfront linked to your site.
CL: The guy posted it, and then
people listed their own things that should be on the list. One of them was
"living with my own kind." All these awful things were in there. It was just
like, "What have I done?"
[pagebreak]
AVC:
Surely you could have seen something like that coming, though.
CL: When I started this, I
didn't consider more than five minutes ahead. It surprised me where it was
coming from. The funny thing is, I knew about Stormfront before. In the late
'90s, I was playing a videogame called Tony La Russa Baseball. Loved it, one of the best
baseball games for a computer ever, and it was made by a company called
Stormfront Studios. So I typed "Stormfront" into Google—sorry, at the
time, AltaVista—and they had the domain first. That's how I first came across
it.
One
of the things with my site that I thought was great was that it took the idea
of racial difference and it approached it from a non-hateful way. So when
people do spin-off sites, like Stuff Educated Black People Like or Stuff Asian
People Like, it was written by black people, or it was written by Asians, and
it wasn't done in a way to be offensive. It was meant to sort of say, "Here are
the things we like as a people, and it's kind of stupid."
AVC:
Another angry person has copped to liking it: Kanye West linked to your site.
Have you heard from him?
CL: No, but I'm
trying my best to. I want him to write an entry on himself. I just want him to
write the word "sweaters." That's it. Just write, "Sweaters. —Kanye
West."
AVC:
The site reads as a guide for non-whites on how to deal with white people. Was
that always its intention?
CL: Absolutely, in a hilarious
way. It's funny when I'll get an e-mail from someone who's black saying, "I
wish I had this before I left for college, it would have saved so much time."
So there is actually a good mix, because people get the joke, and that it is as
much about class as it is about race. People who are in this upper-middle
class, they relate to it. And the fact that is, that class is still
overwhelmingly dominated by white people. As much as we'd like to think it
isn't—"No, it's dominated by this perfect coalition." No, it's white
people.
That's where the humor transcends race a
little bit. People can relate to this. They say, "You know what? I'm black, but
I've been called white my whole life because I like these things." I'm not
making a judgment about the things themselves, but about the way people
approach the things. That's where the audience is. And then, a lot more old
people than I thought. [Laughs.] Which is great, though, I love it. That's
fantastic that they get the jokes and they find it funny. I'm thrilled with
that.
AVC:
What items on the list hit too close to home for you?
CL: "Knowing what's best for
poor people." That was the one where I went right after myself big
time––because I'm so fucking guilty of that. So much of my life, I
believed that people in these situations had no free will, like they shopped at
Wal-Mart just because they have no choice. It was unbelievable, and I thought,
"Oh, if only they had money and education, they could be just like me."
And I was like, "How arrogant and awful is
that?" So I had to call myself out on that one. Fixed-gear bicycles, I'm really
bad on that one. And indie music, these are some of my most obnoxious traits
that I have to call out. I will talk to you for an hour about my bicycle, why
it's so great, and why I love it. And we could go out on the street and I will
review everyone's fixed-gear bicycle that goes by, and tell you everything that
I like and dislike about it. So, yeah, it's pretty pretentious. And indie
music, I'm such a fucking dick about it, just judging people immediately on the
music that they like. Like I say in the book, if I know a band you like, I own
you, it's over, it's over, it's done.
AVC:
What's the procedure for deciding what gets on the list?
CL: Me. It's a mirror.
AVC:
But in a way, aren't you're the worst person to make the list, since you are white? Shouldn't
a non-white compile the authoritative list?
CL: No. I'm the dude that's
selling out my people. You know what I mean? I'm giving away all the insider
secrets.
AVC:
Which aren't really secrets.
CL: No, they're not really
secrets, but they're insights that help explain what's happening. I'd say it's
me, mostly, and a lot of people I went to grad school with. And liberal arts
Ph.D. programs are beyond goldmines. Then I just listened in on the farmers'
markets in Los Angeles.
AVC:
Obviously the site is meant as a joke, but how much anger is there behind that
joke?
CL: It's comedy first and
foremost. I value humor over all else in this book. I just want it to be funny.
But yeah, there's anger about it, there's a lot of things I'm angry about. One
of them is sort of saying, "Look at our generation. What do we have? What's
left?" Stuff is all we have. We can have music, and we can have fixed-gear
bikes, but at the same time, there are people exactly like us in every city and
college town in the whole country, Canada, and parts of Europe. And we're being
sold to in the same way as everyone in the mass media sells to everyone that we
sort of despise.
But you're just as guilty of the
keeping-up-with-the-Joneses' mentality as your parents or grandparents. It's
not a display of wealth. It's about a display of authenticity and taste. And so
it's just my anger about that competition. And what I'm angry about is, I just
can't stop myself from doing it.
It's like what else do I do? Just move to a
gated community? Just lock it up and call it a life, and say, "The rest of the
world can just burn to the ground. I don't care. I'm safe here"? I don't know
any other way. What's the alternative?
AVC:
How interested do you think your readers will be in your next project?
CL: Oh, not at all. I don't
know. They might be. I have no idea how to follow this up. I have other ideas,
but I don't think that there's anything I can do that's going to match the
chord this strikes at this time, and I don't expect to. I don't expect to have
a series of this.
I just hope it leads to a regular job writing
comedy somewhere. And I'm totally happy with that. It's a life goal achieved,
and if it never gets recreated again, that's fine. I don't expect the world to
throw itself at my feet, or for this to happen over and over again. I know this
is very temporary, so I'm just enjoying what I can. The book's going to give me
a little time to see if I can make it as a full-time writer, which is great,
and if it fails, then I'll just go back to work.
AVC:
Speaking of, how did you leave things at your job?
CL: I set my desk on fire. And
there was this bridge on the way out, and I literally burned it. Actually, it
was fine. What a weird situation, for someone to leave their job. Doesn't
happen every day. And my company was an interactive ad agency, we're big on the
web, so they understood. They're really proud of me. And it's really cool that
they can say "He was working here when it all blew up." So there were no hard
feelings whatsoever. Everyone understood, and they were like, "I'd probably do
the same thing. Scratch probably, I would do it." No, I left on great terms, everyone's
really happy for me. And when the next project tanks, they'll be happy to have
me back.
AVC:
What is the next project?
CL: I don't know. It's sort of
hard to look ahead, when as of January 17th of this year, I didn't even have
this project. So everyone's like, "When's the next project?" And I'm like, "I
don't even know. I just finished this one. And I didn't even know this one was
going to be this big." There's a lot of stuff kicking around, and I'll get to
one eventually, but now, I'm just trying to focus on this. I don't know what
will be next, but I'm sure it will be fun, I hope.
AVC:
What if it isn't?
CL: Worst case, I'm pretty sure
because this is on the New
York Times bestseller
list, I can get a job as an MFA professor teaching at some community college
somewhere. I love teaching; that's one thing I miss about grad school. I feel
like with this, it's kind of hard to turn me away as a writing professor. It's
like, "Here's my résumé." I would happily go back to doing that, because I love
teaching so much. This way I could do it and sort of choose where I live, and
not need to finish my Ph.D.
AVC:
Everyone wins.
CL: Except people who are
getting Ph.D.'s and I'm taking jobs from them. But hey, that's what they get.
AVC:
Welcome to America.
CL: Survival of the fittest.