Along
with filmmaking partner Brett Morgen (Chicago 10), documentary director
Nanette Burstein likes to press the limits of what the form can do, most
notably on their film The Kid Stays In The Picture, an unconventional
adaptation/expansion of the notorious autobiography of producer Robert Evans.
Burstein has struck out on her own for her latest effort, American Teen, which arrives in
theaters after a galvanizing première at this year's Sundance Film Festival. Both
evoking and challenging the high-school stereotypes found in films like The
Breakfast Club, American Teen
follows four students—popular (and often mean) girl Megan, nerdy outcast
Jake, self-effacing jock Colin, and volatile free spirit Hannah—through
the dramas of their senior year in the small, conservative town of Warsaw,
Indiana. Burstein recently spoke to The A.V. Club about her varying roles as
documentarian, counselor, witness to illegal acts, and cinematic innovator.
The
A.V. Club: Several years ago, Kirby Dick made a documentary called Chain
Camera
that sampled subjects from one of the most diverse schools in Los Angeles. With
that in mind, what was your rationale for choosing this particular place, which
is very much the opposite?
Nanette
Burstein: I
wanted to do it in the Midwest. I had done a film called On The Ropes 10 years before, which
was about three young boxers from Brooklyn. One of them was in high school, and
the other two were in their early 20s. It dealt with very urban issues—one
of them was Hispanic, two African-American. And I didn't want to do an urban
film, because I felt like I'd already kind of done that story, the problems
inherent to living in an urban environment. And I'd also seen a lot of great
documentaries about multicultural teenagers in cities. So I wanted to do
something in the Midwest.
I
was influenced by this documentary called Seventeen that was made in the
early '80s and shot in Muncie, Indiana. It was just an amazing vérité film
about Middle American teenagers. I felt like in the Midwest, there is something
representative about a lot of this country. Middle America is a very large
place, and there is more of a timelessness about that part of the country. I
wanted it to be in a town where there was only one high school, because I
thought there would be a lot more social pressure that way. Especially if
you're not next to a big city, you can't really escape or blend in, so the
social hierarchy has that much more importance. And I wanted it to be a town
that was economically mixed, because I did want to have some diversity in social
classes. I was hoping to find towns that were also racially mixed, but I found
that in small towns in the Midwest, that was really hard to find. And it needed
to be a school that would cooperate. So I found 10 schools in three states that
were willing to do it and fit that bill, and I went and visited each of them
and interviewed all of the incoming seniors. I was looking for kids from
different social classes and different social cliques that would surprise me,
that seemed like they were one way on the surface but were in fact another, and
that all had strong storylines. They all had to achieve something that year.
AVC:
So why was this an appealing prospect for a high school, to allow you to film
its students? What resistance did you get on that front?
NB: Well, I only went to high
schools that were excited about it.
AVC:
Did you figure out why they were excited?
NB: I think they thought it
would be a cool experience for the students, in that they would be exposed to
filmmaking, and how the process worked—and it would just be a neat
experience for them. You know, you're talking about schools that aren't near
big cities and aren't exposed to a lot of culture. For example, at this school,
the vice principal, who was really our biggest supporter, used to be the drama
teacher, so she was really supportive of the arts, and she thought this would
be a really cool experience.
AVC:
Did they set certain ground rules? And did you have certain demands as well?
How did that work?
NB: I did have to go in front
of the school board and pitch it, and describe what the experience would be
like. First of all, I wasn't looking to make a film that was like "Look how
crazy our teenagers are today. They're wild with sex and drugs!" I held to that
promise, because it really wasn't an issue in this town. And in a lot of
places, what's really happening isn't what we fear to be happening. And also, I
didn't need to spend a lot of time in the classroom. A lot of the drama that's
happening in their lives is outside of the classroom, so I wouldn't be
intruding that much on the actual academic process. So that was also a relief
to them. And every time I was going to film in the school or in a classroom, I
would need to let them know. I certainly needed to let them know if I was just
going to be coming by to film in a hallway, but if I was going to film in a
classroom, I would need permission from that teacher.
AVC:
What about the students? What was the process of choosing them like, and what
sort of arrangements did you have with them in terms of access?
NB: Well, there was nothing
official; it was definitely give and take. I explained to them that I wanted to
film them as much as possible, but that that wouldn't be every day, every
student. Basically, we needed to stay in constant communication so that I knew
what was happening in their lives. But there's a lot of tedium in high school,
too. There might be something happening with one of the subjects, or two of the
subjects, while nothing's really going on with the other one, so you can just
focus on those two and the other two have a break for a while. It was a lot of
just checking in with them every day and finding out what was happening, and
when something important or dramatic was happening, to allow me full access to
it.
AVC:
Was that an arrangement that was made beforehand? Was that tested in any way?
NB: [Laughs.] It was constantly tested.
AVC:
Did they ever shut down on you?
NB: Yeah,
absolutely. They would say "Oh, you can't film me tonight," or they would lie
and say "I'm just staying home and watching TV," which wouldn't really be the
case. It was definitely a constant struggle. But that being said, I was there
for a year, and I got incredible raw, intimate moments. For every moment that I
couldn't shoot, there were handfuls more of great moments. If I missed enough
of a thread of a storyline, I just wouldn't put that storyline in the film. A
lot of documentaries are told through interviews: "This happened and then this
happened." That series on WE, High School Confidential, it's almost all
interviews. So I really wanted it to be a film where you saw all these moments
acted out, rather than being told what happens, and missing it.
AVC:
In your experience, are teenagers more comfortable revealing themselves in
front of the camera than adults? And by the same token, are they more conscious
of the camera as well?
NB: Yeah, I
think they are more comfortable in revealing themselves on camera. I don't
think they're more conscious, self-conscious. I definitely had a harder time
with the parents acting like themselves on camera than I did with the
teenagers. But I also spent a lot more time with the teenagers; they were much
more accustomed to being filmed. Reality TV definitely had an adverse reaction
for me, and made it more challenging. Because a lot of students watch reality
TV and they'd say "Oh, is this what you're trying to do?" Or "Are you trying to
make me look like an idiot?" You know, it can be very mean-spirited, and a lot
of people look maybe not so flattering on a lot of those shows. There was
suspicion, especially with the students that I wasn't filming all the time,
some of their peers. They were very dubious of the film crew and what our
intentions were.
AVC:
By the same token, there's so much reality television that you get a sense kids
feel like their lives must be recorded, must be documented in some way.
NB: Actually,
it was the opposite here. Each individual kid has such insecurity issues that
they're like "Why are you filming me? I'm not that interesting," even when they
are infinitely
interesting. "Why aren't you in California, filming really rich super-beautiful
people?" There would be that a lot. "Why are you in my town?"
AVC:
How did you answer?
NB: I would explain, you
know, "I think you're really funny." If it was Jake, for example, I'd say,
"You're really funny. You are completely unexpected. You're insecure,
considered a nerd in your school, and you're still looking for companionship.
Despite whatever rejections you might have had, it hasn't deterred you in any
way." Most kids who have been rejected, or been made fun of, do not leave their
room and continuously ask girls out. So he was this weird combination of being
incredibly insecure but very brave at the same time, and very self-conscious
but incredibly charming. Either with me on camera or just one-on-one
companionship, he was hilarious, but in a group situation, he was like a mute.
So I would explain what was unique about them, you know. And then they still
wouldn't believe me.
AVC:
Did you ever feel like your subjects were trying to manipulate you or the movie
for their purposes?
NB: I did feel that way
sometimes. Not with most of them. With Megan, I felt like I was back in high
school, hanging out with the popular girls, and I was being manipulated. I
guess she felt that she had the most to lose because of some of her behavior on
camera. So she was savvier about being filmed or not being filmed. So she would
manipulate me a lot more. It was interesting, because there were some other
popular girls I was filming for a while that I didn't end up putting in the
movie. And if I would spend a lot of time interviewing them, she would get
jealous, and then suddenly I would have full access to her life again. [Laughs.]
There was definitely a whole power play happening with camera time. But if I
was really interested in just filming her and she knew that, then she would use
that to her advantage.
AVC:
There's a weird thing with her, where her cruelty became a kind of
exhibitionism in a way. It's like she wanted you to be there to see her send
off the mass e-mail of the topless picture a classmate shot for her boyfriend.
NB: No, there were a lot of
acts that I wasn't privy to as well. They were constant.
AVC:
Even vandalizing the house and all that?
NB: Yeah. That was part of
those compromises. But there were a lot of things she would do and not inform
me, that I'd hear about later. She was an exhibitionist, not necessarily for
the camera's sake, just with her friends.
AVC:
The movie takes place in what's described in the beginning as a very
conservative, religious, red-state-type town, yet politics and religion are
pretty absent from the film. Why?
NB: Because they don't care
about them. And at my high school, nobody cared about politics. And religion… I
shouldn't say nobody cared about religion, because that's not true. Politics,
they definitely don't care about. Religion, I was open to being a
problem—or, if a conflict came up that was important. There were
certainly relationships where a certain kid might be much more religious and
dating a Catholic, and that might be a problem for their parents. But that just
didn't come up in the people I was filming. The only one who came from a pretty
religious background was Mitch, the blonde guy. But it didn't really enter into
his story. Politics never entered into it, because they just didn't care. And it doesn't affect their world.
AVC:
It's not really time for that yet.
NB: Yeah, exactly. College is
when you have that awakening. When you're in the middle of the country,
isolated, and all you're exposed to are other Republican ideas, and it has no
bearing on your day-to-day life, why should you be interested?
[pagebreak]
AVC:
Which do you think came first, John Hughes' movies or a high-school caste
system? Is it a case of life imitating art? Do they feel like they have to play
those roles?
NB: I think a high-school
caste system existed before John Hughes films, definitely. I was in high school
when those films came out, and there was definitely a caste system in my high
school. And my sister's classes, too, and she's older than me. I've had people
who are 50, 60 years old see this film and say, "Oh, my high school was the
same way." I think it's been a pretty timeless thing in this country.
AVC:
The weird irony of it is, teenagers seem to resent it, and yet they participate
in it anyway.
NB: Exactly.
AVC:
Were they ever conscious of that?
NB: No, I
don't think so, but you're exactly right. It is something where teenagers
resent the fact that they have to play these roles. And that's kind of what the
film is about, the fact that you're trying to figure out who you are at that
age. You're a senior in high school, you're smart and mature enough to
formulate an opinion of who you are and a direction you want to go in life, but
it's so tough. Because your peers want to you to be one way, and are labeling
you to be one way, and there's all this pressure to fit into this mold. And
then your parents want you to be another way, regarding decisions about your
future. All the while, beneath all this, you're trying to figure out who you
are. So that's why I think they really reject the idea of this clique system,
but it's imposed upon them by their peers, no matter what.
AVC:
In the case of someone like Hannah, who actually recognizes and rejects it, the
repercussions can be pretty devastating.
NB: Right,
exactly. Hard to be your own person in high school.
AVC:
What kind of relationship did you end up having with them personally, over the
course of a year? Did they seek counsel from you at any point, or was there
distance that needed to be maintained?
NB: No, there wasn't a
distance. They definitely did seek counsel with me, and I was like a big sister
to them. Still am.
AVC:
You still keep up with them?
NB: Yeah.
AVC:
Were you worried about the ways your counsel might affect the documentary?
Because you're not an acknowledged presence in the documentary itself, but you
are in their lives. How does that play?
NB: I think
that first of all, there's going to be limitations to what advice they actually
take from me. I think it's more about having somebody listen to you. When
you're a documentary filmmaker, you're a lot like a therapist. And that's what
the people in the film get out of it; they have free counseling and someone to
listen to them. Does it have an effect? Perhaps. If you're asking people to
expose their lives on camera, their vulnerabilities, their intimate moments,
their raw feelings, they have to be able to know you and trust you. And that
means having a close friendship. Perhaps there is some alteration, but I don't
know that it's possible to get people to reveal themselves like that on camera
unless you're close with them. So I think it's worth the trade-off.
AVC:
There are times in the film when you're witnessing something illegal, from
underage drinking to vandalism. Were there any points that you thought you
should be intervening rather than filming, or were there points were you did
intervene, rather than film?
NB: Usually I would film and
then talk to them about what they were doing. It is a balance. It's weird,
because you play a strange role. You're a filmmaker there to accurately record
what's happening, but you're also their friend, so you have to go back and
forth between those roles. For example, when Hannah was crying about her
boyfriend breaking up with her, I was filming it for about 20 minutes, then I
put the camera down and took her over to my house and talked with her for the
next three hours. But I filmed it first. It's weird. You do a balancing act.
AVC:
Have you thought about the impact this movie might have on your subjects'
lives, or might have had already? What would the success of the film actually
mean for them, whether detrimental or positive?
NB: I think about it a lot. I
hope it will be positive, and so far it has. They all came out to Sundance, had
a great time, just had a really fun experience, and people really responded positively
to them. With Jake, I think it really helped his confidence. With all of them,
even Megan, who at some points is portrayed as being maybe not too kind to her
peers, I think she's the most complicated person in the film. And you really
understand the family tragedy she's gone through and the pressure she's under,
and a lot of people come to really appreciate her, despite anything she might
have done in the first half of the film. So far, so good. Paramount is actually
bringing them out to L.A. for the summer, and they're going to be working on
the promotion of the movie for two months. And they'll be back here [in
Chicago] for Lollapalooza, and different events. If the film were to become
huge, I think they all have pretty good heads on their shoulders, and I've
tried to stress that they think of this as a fun experience, but not let it
derail their plans in life at all.
AVC:
Are they all entirely happy with the way they're depicted?
NB: Yeah.
AVC:
Even Megan?
NB: She feels like it's an
honest depiction of her.
AVC:
Is it that she's maybe grown up a little bit?
NB: She has. She's grown up a
lot. And she can see certain acts of being immature, and that she's different
now, and that this is of a time. None of us were angels in high school. She can
see it with a grain of salt, and she feels that it accurately portrays her. The
point of the film is to show people's flaws as well as their more likeable
attributes. I think with her, it's very much a mix.
AVC:
The title American Teen is pretty ambitious.
NB: [Laughs.] Yeah.
AVC:
To what degree do you think the film is a reflection of the teenage experience,
and to what degree is it specific to Warsaw, Indiana?
NB: I think obviously the
American part and the kids all being white is a problem. Or maybe not a
problem, but it's led some people to question that. I think what is universal,
and what I find when I screen it in urban areas, or multicultural areas, or
small towns in the Midwest, or wherever, is that there's a relatability to what
these kids are going through. As far as searching for their identity,
insecurities, wanting to fit in, the heartbreak, the loss. All of these things
are very universal, so you may have an Asian girl from San Francisco, or an
African-American boy from Brooklyn, watch this film and relate to a lot of the
things that are going on. So in that way, I have, thankfully, found a lot of
the issues to be universal. I don't think that issues of struggling on the
poverty line and all that comes with that… the extreme parts of America are not
represented.
AVC:
In what ways does the film affirm or defy stereotypes about high school?
NB: I hope that it defies
them. We all either were these kids in high school or knew kids like this in
high school, and they are these iconic figures. But I think the point of the
film is to show that they're so much more complicated than the stereotype leads
you to believe. Like, okay, Megan is the popular girl, the mean girl, perhaps,
but in fact she has so much more going on, and so much pressure and so much
rage, because she's gone through something so much more difficult than any of the
other kids in the film—and that's bearing down on her soul and her
psyche. Each of them seems to have these complications that, again, they're
labeled this way, but they're not this way.
AVC:
Based on this movie, Chicago 10 and The Kid Stays In The Picture, is it safe to say
that you and Brett Morgen have a more liberal philosophy about what
documentaries can do?
NB: Perhaps.
AVC:
Your films are playful. Critics would say too slick.
NB: Yes, I've heard that.
AVC:
Do we limit ourselves too much in terms of how documentary can be defined?
NB: I believe so. It's
funny—you know, cinéma vérité didn't exist until the 1960s, yet somehow
in the last 50 years, it has come to define what documentaries need to be. But
for 30 years before that, documentaries were entirely staged. Which is not
something that I do, but they were. They set up every shot in films like Nanook
Of The North.
Because the cameras were so big that they couldn't just be spontaneous. And I
don't believe that you can be a fly on the wall. I don't believe that really
exists. Unless something really dire is happening, then sometimes people just
tune you out. But the idea that you don't have a relationship with the people
you're filming, or the camera doesn't have some kind of presence, is ludicrous.
Or that you as the filmmaker don't have a point of view is also ludicrous. I'm
sure when cinéma vérité came out, it was criticized. I do feel like there's
this very old-fashioned, limited view about what documentaries can be, and it's
unfortunate. On the one hand, it's actually kind of fun, because there hasn't
been a ton of change, so there's a lot to experiment with! [Laughs.] Whereas
with fiction films, there's more experimentation happening all the time. But on
the other hand, it's frustrating, because when you do something that's a little
bit out of the box, you get criticized.
AVC:
You talked about how you're in touch with these teenagers. What about Robert
Evans or the three boxers in On The Ropes? Do those
relationships continue?
NB: It does continue, and it
continues for years. Next week, Robert Evans is being honored by the Academy,
and I'm going there. I talk to him on the phone. The trainer more than the
boxers, actually, I keep in touch with regularly from On The Ropes. And all the kids from
this movie I talk to. I just talked to Megan and Mitch last night, and the vice
principal. Yeah, I keep in touch with them. And that's something that's kind of
great about these films, because you meet people from worlds that you would
have never met, and you get really close to them. Because it really is like a
collaboration. On any of these films, the subject has to want to do it as much
as you do, because otherwise, it's not going to work. Hammering people and
forcing them to expose themselves does not work. They're just going to quit.
They have to have their own personal reasons for wanting to do it. So you get
close in the process.
AVC:
Has the film screened in Warsaw? Have the people taken it in?
NB: Actually, tomorrow we're
screening it for some of the parents that haven't seen it, and the school-board
members and administrators and teachers.
AVC:
Does that make you nervous?
NB: It always makes me
nervous screening for people who haven't seen it who are somehow involved in
the film. Because you really don't know how they're going to react. I was very
nervous screening it for all the kids who are in the film. [Looks around.]
There's no wood here. Uh-oh. Here's paper. Here! Knock on paper.