Courtney B. Vance on Clint Eastwood, 12 Angry Men, and how he almost missed The Hunt For Red October

The actor: Courtney B. Vance didn’t spend his childhood dreaming of pursuing a career in acting, but as soon as he discovered that it was the right path for him to follow, he promptly made the most of it. After starting his career in the theater, he made the jump in front of the camera, doing a bit of TV work before cementing himself in the public eye with his performance in his first feature film, the 1987 Vietnam War drama Hamburger Hill. 

While he’s certainly continued to maintain a steady stream of work on the big screen, Vance has also been a TV staple, including a five-year run on Law & Order: Criminal Intent as well as an arc on ER with his real-life wife, Angela Bassett. Vance is now back on the small screen again, starring in the second season of the drama 61st Street, which—despite filming two seasons back to back for AMC—was canceled by the network. Thankfully, The CW rescued the series, providing viewers with an opportunity to see how Franklin Roberts’ story continues and—if we’re really lucky— maybe get to see it expand into a third season. 

61st Street (2022-present)—“Franklin Roberts”

The A.V. Club: First and foremost, it’s fantastic news that they found a home for season two of the series.

Courtney B. Vance: Yeah, we’re eternally thrilled and grateful. We were a family. It was a lot of work, being in Chicago through seasons. [Laughs.] The winter, the fall, the summer, the spring… Being there for that long, doing 16 episodes, whatever city you’re in becomes your little second home, which is what it was. But my family came and visited one or two times. So, yeah, it was a journey, but we were a family.

AVC: How did you find your way into the project in the first place? Did they reach out to you?

CBV: Yes, they reached out to me, and then I sat down with Peter Moffat and Jay Shanks – Jay was the showrunner, Peter Moffat was the creator of the series – just to make sure we were all on the same page. We were, and it became very simple for me and easy for me to say “yes.” 

AVC: Not that I want any spoilers for season two, but did they lay out the full storyline of both seasons before you signed on?

CBV: No, they didn’t. But I was still in. I wanted to go on this journey with this character and these gentlemen and Alana Mayo, another of the executive producers. You do what you can, and the rest of it is fate. I trusted these two gentlemen and Alana Mayo, so I said, “Let’s go!”

AVC: What, if anything, can you say about what to expect during season two?

CBV: More of the same. Franklin’s dealing with his health and trying to help people and trying to keep his family together. He promised his wife he would retire and that Franklin would help take care of their son, who is 16 and on the spectrum, and she would get out into the world, because she’s been home taking care of him for 16 years. So it was her time. And it was my time to come home. And then life happened. So our family was very impacted, she was very upset about it, and…we’ll see where they end up! I mean, you’ll see. I know. [Laughs.] But you’ll see where they end up!

First Affair (1983)—“Male Student”

AVC: We try to go as far back in an actor’s filmography as we possibly can, and based on IMDb, your first on-camera role would appear to have been as a male student in First Affair.

CBV: Oh, wow. [Hesitates.] First Affair, that was the name of the show?

AVC: Yeah, it was a TV movie with Loretta Swit.

CBV: Oh, wow…

AVC: Does that not sound familiar? Maybe it’s wrong!

CBV: No, that’s right. I played a male student. First Affair… Wow, okay, cool. [Laughs.] You know, the furthest back I can remember is a soap opera. I pushed a gurney, and I think I had…a line? Five lines? I don’t know if it was As the World Turns or All My Children or whatever, but I was an orderly or something like that. 

AVC: How did you find your way into acting in the first place? Did you grow up with an interest in pursuing it?

CBV: No, I didn’t know anything about it. I went to college, and I didn’t know what I wanted to do, and all I knew was that I was not going to settle. I wanted to find something that made me happy, and I said, “All the jobs are not in these job books.” But this was at a time when you didn’t have the internet. And when I went to college, they had an Office of Career Services, but they had 3″ x 5″ cards, and there were people’s phone numbers on them, and… they were no good. So you couldn’t really get in touch with alumni to actually ask what they do and ask, “Can I shadow you?” or whatever.

So I ran track my first year and…it wasn’t fun anymore. I ran track in high school and played football and basketball in high school, but it wasn’t fun anymore. And I wasn’t doing what I said I would do, which was meet people. So I finished my last hurdle at the end of my freshman year, came back my sophomore year and started doing shows, because I knew if I did a show, I’d meet a different group of people every time. And after my second show, my aunt—who came and saw the show—said, “Courtney, you should do this. You’re really good.” And I was, like, “Hmmm, wow, lightbulb moment here…” And the rest is history.

AVC: Did you always know that you wanted to make your way in front of the camera, or would you have been happy just sticking with theater?

CBV: I didn’t know anything about anything. [Laughs.] None of it seemed like an option. Theater, film… Being an actor wasn’t an option in my mind. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I tried an internship with a law firm in high school. I tried mechanical drawing in high school to see if I wanted to be an architect. But they weren’t for me. I just knew when I went to school that we would figure it out together, the students. And when I got there, everybody “already knew.” And I said, “How do you know? How do you know you want to be a lawyer? What is that?” So come to find out that, of course, they didn’t know. Everybody’s posturing and carrying on, so… whatever, boo. 

Law & Order (1990 / 1995)—“Mayor’s Assistant” (uncredited) / “Bud Greer”

Law & Order: Criminal Intent (2001-2006)—“A.D.A. Ron Carver”

AVC: Most folks know about your lengthy stint on Law & Order: Criminal Intent, but you actually appeared twice on the “mothership,” as it’s called. You weren’t even credited the first time—you played the mayor’s assistant—but the second time, when you played Bud Greer, that’s definitely one that people still talk about.

CBV: Bud Greer! Man, I wanted that to go further. I think we were supposed to do a three-episode arc, but we only ended up doing one. I was so bummed. But, yeah, what a line: I told Chris Noth, “Not only do I make more money than you, but I’m smarter than you.” Something like that. And he did not appreciate that… but it was very funny! [Laughs.] Chris Noth is a dear friend of mine, so to be able to say those words to him was very wonderful. Love you, Chris! 

AVC: Given the impact you made with that episode, did that have a direct connection to how you ended up doing Criminal Intent, or was that incidental?

CBV: You know, I don’t know. That’s a great question. Because it happened years later. I didn’t get into Criminal Intent until 2001, and Bud Greer was in the ’90s sometime, so… I don’t know! But it was good. I met a lot of wonderful people. Vince D’Onofrio and Katy Erbe and the rest of the cast and crew… We had a great time. I had five years, I did 105 episodes, so… it’s all good.

The People v. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story (2016)—“Johnnie Cochran”

CBV: That was the role of a lifetime. My goodness, that was… I was so grateful that it came my way. And then I was so intimidated by him. I didn’t know I would be, but I was, like, “Oh, my goodness…” I didn’t watch any footage. I read Jeffrey Toobin, my Harvard classmate, his book a couple of times, and I said, “I got it. I know who he is. And the little stuff I miss… Folks will just forgive me, ’cause we got to go! I can’t be all in my head trying to sound like him and walk like him and do all that, so… let’s go! Let’s jump in this puppy! The scripts are great. Let’s go!” And it was the best thing for me to do. I didn’t want to get all in my head about how he sounded. He was a black man just like I am. His parents sent him to an all-white school, and he had to deal with all the stuff he had to deal with to become the person he ended up becoming.

Hamburger Hill (1987)—“Abraham ‘Doc’ Johnson”

Picket Fences (1995)—“Warren Grier”

CBV: Doc! Wow, what a death scene. That was all of our first films. I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what to expect. And then two people died in the making of it, and I just knew that when the second person died, we were going home. But people voted to stay. As we were going over there, we saw that the Platoon folks had just finished, and they were coming out, so we realized, “Man, we missed the window. Platoon beat us.” And we knew that they would be the first Vietnam story out there. But, you know, we told a great story, too. We just weren’t the first one. Doc was… Everything was about the brothers staying together, and that phrase, “Don’t mean nothin’, not a thing. Gotta keep our minds straight, otherwise we’ll crumble. Don’t mean nothin’, not a thing.” Yeah, I loved him.

AVC: Was that the first time you met Don Cheadle? 

CBV: Yes! It was all our first films.

AVC: And then you got to reunite with him on Picket Fences several years later.

CBV: Oh, wow. Ray Walston. Take me back… [Laughs.] Yeah, I don’t know how much screen time Don and I had together, but he was on there. 

AVC: How was Ray Walston? You clearly have a fond memory there.

CBV: I do. I loved him. From My Favorite Martian, of course. But he was a very kind man. I made sure I went up and said hello to him, and he was very open and kind to me. I think he was a judge or something like that? An authoritarian figure anyway, but I think he was a judge. Yeah, I loved him. He took me under his wing and took care of me.

The Adventures Of Huck Finn (1993)—“Jim”

CBV: That was very interesting. They didn’t think that I, as a Harvard grad and a Yale Drama School grad, could play a slave. So they really put me through the wringer to get that role. But it’s all good. I’m not mad at ’em. I had a wonderful time with little Elijah Wood when he was 11. He and I played together. His mother was very quick to remind him and all of us, “He’s 11, and he cannot hang out with you guys like you hang out. He’s got to go home, go to bed, learn his lines.” I was very impressed with her and how she covered her son. And he wanted to hang out with us, too! It was, like, “Baby, you got to go to bed. You’ve got to do your homework, you’ve got to look at these lines. So don’t get it twisted: you are 11.” [Laughs.]

Elijah and I went to… [Hesitates.] You know, there were huge plantations down there that you could have for a song back in the day, but there was one plantation that had a pool, and he said, “Courtney, can we go swimming?” I said, “Yeah, come on, let’s go!” We knocked on the door, and the lady opened the door, and…I don’t know if she was black or white, but she wouldn’t look at me. She looked at little Elijah. When I said, “Ma’am, we’re here to swim in the pool. Is it public?” She talked to Elijah, she wouldn’t talk to me. And then we got in there, and… it’s this huge plantation pool. I guess it was, like, a public thing or something? I don’t know what it was. I don’t know how we ended up there!

But we jumped in the pool. And he was so excited to jump in the pool, and he didn’t notice it, but I noticed it: one by one, people got out of the pool because I got in the pool. And a black man came up to me while we were in the pool splashing around… Now, I’m in the pool now, so I’m splashing around, we’re having fun, everyone else is out, and a black man came up to me when I was sitting on the pool because I was resting, and he said, “You know, brother man… You know you’re the first black person that’s ever gotten in this pool.” So you know they probably drained that sucker after I left. But, y’know, little Elijah was completely unaware. As he should be at 11 years old. 

Panther (1995)—“Bobby Seale”

ER (2008-2009)—“Russell Banfield”

AVC: How was it getting to work with your wife [Angela Bassett] on ER?

CBV: You know, we had a great time. I think I only did three or four episodes, something like that. But it was probably the first time we had really worked together… I think. Up to that point, anyway. When we did Panther, which was right during the O.J. trial, because they preempted the basketball game, the NBA finals, that we were watching up in Sacramento… That was ’94, right?

AVC: It was released in ’95, so, yeah, you would’ve been filming it in ’94.

CBV: Yeah, so that would’ve been the first time. Technically. Because she played Betty Shabazz and walked through. She didn’t have any lines, we just escorted her through. Historically, that’s what we did. We weren’t married at the time. We were, just, y’know… [Lowers voice.] “What’s up, Angie? What’s up, girl?” And then we got married in ’97.

Isle Of Dogs (2018)—“Narrator”

AVC: How did you wind up narrating Wes Anderson’s Isle Of Dogs?

CBV: I think he just called and asked if I would. [Hesitates.] Wow, you’ve got some good questions. [Laughs.] That was a great piece. I loved that concept, narrating animation, so I was glad to get my foot in the door. It’s a tough nut to crack!

Cookie’s Fortune (1999)—“Otis Tucker”

AVC: Robert Altman had a long history of not really doing auditions, per se. What was your meeting with him like?

CBV: I don’t even remember, my man. [Laughs.] I don’t remember. I just know… It’s so funny, because I’m working with Niecy Nash now in Grotesquerie, and that was the first time we worked together. Her character, I would turn around and she’d be in my face, just looking lovingly at me. I’m, like, “What are you doing? What’s wrong with you? Back up!” I need to rewatch that. But Robert Altman and his wife created such a wonderful environment for magic to happen. Everyone was encouraged to come to the dailies. [Pauses.] You may have been required to come to the dailies. And his wife would have all kinds of wonderful food. It was a celebration. Everybody would be, like, “Hey, what’s happening?” And then… [Clinks glass.] “We’re about to start the screening!” It really was like a screening. With popcorn and all kinds of stuff.

And then because we were in a small town… Holly Springs, Mississippi, which is about 10-15 miles from Ole Miss. Oxford, I believe. A lot of history down there. But it was blazing. 90-95 degrees, and the humidity. And then the film got delayed for some reason. Probably money. Probably had to raise that money. So I would just go to the gym in the morning and do all that kind of stuff. And then I remember that towards the end, there was the NBA finals… Everything’s about the NBA finals. [Laughs..] But it was the NBA finals, when Chicago and Utah were playing, it was the last two minutes of the game, and Michael stole the ball from Karl Malone and scored at the end, and they were down by two or tied or something like that, and Michael crossed over and hit that winning shot… Just as all of that was about to happen, the power went out.

AVC: Ugh…

CBV: The power went out in the whole house. I was, like, “No. No! NO! WHAT?!” So that’s my fond memory of Cookie’s Fortune. [Laughs.] That, and Niecy and I. And just that Robert Altman was such a lovely man. He and his wife, they took such good care of all of us.

The Last Supper (1995)—“Luke”

CBV: Oh, what a crazy, crazy… We shot that in 18 days. We rehearsed the heck out of everything and shot it. Stacy Title, God rest her soul, she died of ALS about two or three years ago. My mother died of ALS, so she was so near and dear to my heart. But we shot that in 18 days, a great cast, and then at the last… We had I think one more scene to shoot or something like that, we were all sitting out on the front porch, just chillin’, just going, “Wow, we did this thing. Wow, wow, wow…” And someone said, “Uh, the house is on fire.” We were, like, “What? Did someone say… the house is on fire? Are they joking? Is the house on fire? That’s a song, isn’t it? Is the house on fire?” And the house was on fire! [Laughs.] We had to get off the porch, the firemen came and put the house out. I was, like, “Oh, you’re kidding me!” One of the spotlights that was in the house set the wall on fire, so the house almost burned down. Yeah, boy…

AVC: I just have to say, it’s one of those films that feels all too relevant even now.

CBV: I know. Oh, I know. But Cameron Diaz, Ron Eldard, all of us, we had a great time. Great cast.

Space Cowboys (2000)—“Roger Hines”

CBV: You know, I love Clint. I love me some Clint Eastwood. Can’t nobody say nothing about him. But I was supposed to drive that ship, okay? [Laughs.] And at the last minute, he and his boys decided that they were gonna drive it. And I was, like, “Boy, what’s up? I was supposed to drive!” He said, “Court, I’ll make it up to you, I’ll make it up to you.” [Looks directly into camera.] Clint. I’m waiting. I’m waiting, Clint. [Grins.] But I love me some Clint Eastwood. The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, Five Easy Pieces, and all that stuff. The spaghetti westerns. That’s a bad boy right there. And also the former mayor of Carmel! So it’s all good.

The Hunt For Red October (1990)—“Jones”

CBV: Just getting in that film was the hardest part, because I replaced Joe Morton at the Public in… something about Mephistopheles or Faustus or something. I can’t remember what it was. But I got in the room, and my agent said, “If this movie comes up, if The Hunt For Red October comes up, you’ll let him out.” Because I was up for it, I was waiting to hear. And the general manager said, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever.” Of course, the movie comes up, and he refused. Because he didn’t want to have to replace a second person in this role. And I knew I was going. If I had to walk out in the middle of the play, I was gonna leave. I had made up my mind. And I was downstairs warming up, and somebody came in and said, “Your agent wants you to call him.” This is before cell phones and stuff. So I got on the phone, and he said, “Courtney, you gotta go up and talk to Joe Papp.” I said, “Why I gotta talk to Joe?  That’s your job! What are you doing? Why does he need to talk to me?” 

So I went up to see him, and he was behind this big ol’ desk, and he said, “Courtney, I want you to tell me why you think you’re gonna go, and then I’m gonna tell you why you’re not going.” I said, “Well, Mr. Papp, I just know that my agent had said that if this came up, I’d be allowed to go, so… it’s up. And I’m very disappointed that y’all are doing this to me.” And respectfully, I left. And I went downstairs. And before I got down to the ground floor, they told me to come back up. So Sam Cohen, the head of ITM, which was my agency, he… used to eat Kleenex, by the way. True story. [Laughs.] But Sam got on the phone with Joe and the general manager and my agent, and Sam said to Joe, “You can’t hold him back. You can’t do that. You know that, Joe, right?” So Joe said to the general manager, “Did you say to the agent that if this film came up, he could go?” And the general manager had to admit that he did. So Joe said, “Okay, go ahead, Courtney. Do your thing.” And I don’t know what happened to the GM, ’cause he lied. But because I took so long to get the role, I didn’t get a chance to go on the sub. 

AVC: I literally just rewatched the film, and I’ll just say that the fact that you make the impression that you do in a cast filled with that many top-shelf character actors really says a lot about your performance.

CBV: [Smiles and points at camera.] Thank you. I’m very proud of it.

AVC: Also, I’m presuming that at some point over the years you’ve seen the trailer for The Spongebob Squarepants Movie that incorporates footage from the film.

CBV: No, I didn’t see that!

AVC: I’ll be sure to send over the link. They tweak the footage so that what Jonesy actually finds is Spongebob singing in the bathtub. So they use your line, “I thought I heard singing, sir.”

CBV: [Laughs.] Oh, that’s funny! Yeah, send it!

12 Angry Men (1997)—“Foreman”

CBV: I wasn’t supposed to do that. I mean, I did it, but Karl Malden got sick, I think, at the last minute, and so they asked me, and I said, “Oh, of course!” So I sat next to Ossie Davis, who was at the end of the table. And Ossie Davis would fall asleep. And then I would nudge him, and he would wake up and say his line. He knew his line. [Laughs.] He knew right where he was, and he would say his line. But all of those actors… Jack Lemmon had all the lines and didn’t know any of ’em. George C. Scott had a photographic memory and did a two-page monologue in one take. We shot the whole thing in 11 days. 12 Angry Men shot in 11 days. 

Jack Lemmon, of course, it was horrific for him, because he had monstrously long monologues. And…who was my man who was 93 or 94? He was married to Jessica Tandy… Hume Cronyn! 93 years old, knew everybody’s lines. Had very few lines but knew everybody’s lines. And James Gandolfini was in that, my man who was in CSI, William Petersen… We were all in that cast, and we did the whole thing in 11 days and got out of there. I think they had big ol’ cue cards for Jack, so he could do his lines. But what can you do? We only had 11 days. It was tough for him. But we got through it. Nobody was the worse for wear. 12 Angry Men. Bill Friedkin. Love him.