Read Matt Reeves' lengthy interview about The Batman—and why he loves Ben Affleck's Bruce Wayne
Thousands of fans gathered virtually on Saturday for DC FanDome, DC Comics’ own little Comic-Con. Well, maybe we shouldn’t call it little. The seven-hour event gave us Wonder Woman 1984’s second official trailer; the first trailer for Batman: Gotham Knights; a little bit of info about the Sandman Netflix series; sketches for the new Flash suit; who is playing who in the new Suicide Squad movie; a first look at John Ridley’s Black Batman; the “Snyder Cut” Justice League trailer; some sketches of what people can expect from the upcoming Black Adam movie; info about Red Hood, Barbara Gordon, and Scarecrow heading to Titans; and much more. But things capped off with the debut of the first trailer for The Batman. Before they rolled the tape, director Matt Reeves sat with—well, stood at a safe distance from—DC FanDome host Aisha Tyler. Over the 20-minute interview, Reeves discussed the thinking behind focusing on Batman as a
detective, how the movie was inspired by Chinatown and Taxi Driver, how The Batman will tie in with his upcoming new HBO Max tie-in series, and why he loves Ben Affleck’s Bruce Wayne.
Here is a transcript of that interview.
AISHA TYLER: Why was The Batman something you wanted to sign up for?
MATT REEVES: Look,
I love Batman. And I’ve loved that man since I was a kid. And, you
know, I never even imagined when I began making movies that I would do
genre movies because I just loved certain kinds of movies that were very
character-based. And it’s really interesting that as I got deeper into
genre. I realized that that was a way to do very emotional stories, but
under the guise of these sort of great mythic tales. And, in particular,
what excited me—and the thing I related to in the Batman story—was that
he isn’t a superhero in the traditional sense. You know, he might have a
cape, but he can’t fly, he’s like you and me. But if he has a
superpower, it’s the ability to endure and not only the ability, but the
kind of compulsion. And so, that idea of being that driven by your past
and by the things that you can’t quite resolve in yourself, like he’s a
very alive character. And, to me, to tell a version of Batman where,
again, it wasn’t about how he became Batman, but it’s about the early
days of how he is Batman. And he is so far from being perfect and watch
us sort of see him becoming what we all know about him and see it in new
ways. I felt like that was a way to do something that hadn’t been done.
And that was really what I was excited to be able to do in this
iteration.
AT: He’s just a guy who wants to do good.
MR:
And that’s the thing. The other question is what is good? One of the
things that I think is interesting is learning how to be Batman. You
know, the whole idea…. This is all an experiment, in the movie. The
idea is that we’re in Year Two, it’s the Gotham Experiment. It’s a
criminological experiment. He’s trying to figure out sort of what he can
do that can finally change this place. And in our story, as he’s in
that mode, that’s where you meet him…and he’s seeing that he’s not
having any of the effect that he wants to have yet, and that is when the
murders start to happen. And then the murders begin to describe sort of
the history of Gotham in a way that only reinforces what he knows about
Gotham, but it opens up a whole new world of corruption that went much
farther. But as that story starts to come out, without being an origin
tale for him, it ends up being something that touches on his origins. So
you start to see that, as it starts to describe this Epic history of
corruption in Gotham, that you start to understand, “Well, where did my
family sit in that?” And in that sense, I think all of that is, is a way
to take a story that is a detective story, a very point of view story, a
mystery—it’s got, of course, you know, action, all that kind of stuff.
But at the end of it, it also is incredibly personal for him, even
though it is the story in which he’s trying to understand and unravel
this mystery of his past.
AI: You’ve revealed some of the characters in this story, and casting is just extraordinary.
MR: They’re
amazing. You know, we have Paul Danno, who plays a version of the
Riddler that no one ever seen before. And it’s really exciting. He’s
such an incredibly creative actor. And so what he is doing, I think is
going to blow people’s minds and. And then to have, you know, Zoe
Kravitz, her iteration of Selina Kyle, like to me, that’s incredibly
exciting. You have an iteration that you’ve never seen of what she’s
doing, but it touches on all these kind of iconic sort of things that
people know from the comics. So, it’s always about trying to square what
you sort of know with what also is new. And that is really part of, I
think the exciting sort of process of making the Batman movie, which is
to find a way to make it your own and to find a way for the actors to
make it their own, and yet still connect to all these things that people
also go, “Oh, that’s my, that’s my Selina. I know who that is.” I guess
the one things about the Rogues’ Gallery is that it actually, in a
weird way, is the origins of a lot of our Rogues’ Gallery characters.
So, like, Selina isn’t Catwoman yet—that’s actually part of the journey.
Oz is not yet the kingpin that he’s going to become. He is the
Penguin—in fact, doesn’t like being called the Penguin. And the Riddler
is just emerging for the first time. So that’s all incredibly exciting.
And then we have like, you know, Andy Serkis who is, you know, I worked
with on the [Planet Of The Apes] movies and one of the most
beautiful actors, and he is playing an iteration of Alfred that I feel
like people have never seen before, which is really exciting to share
with people. And then we have an incredible—for me, I just think that
Jeffrey Wright is just one of the great actors, and to be able to work
with him in a totally new iteration of Gordon…. And then we have, you
know, the amazing John Turturro, who’s going to be a Carmine Falcone,
who, again, I think in this iteration, you’ve never seen that version
before. And how all these characters connect, I think, for me, it was
one of the challenges, but also exciting things about the creation of
the story, which is that, in going on this sort of desire to solve—or
the urge and the compulsion to solve—this series of crimes, you touch on
all of these iterations of the beginnings of these characters so that
he whole movie is like, it’s like a snowball rolling. You can just feel
the momentum building and building—and that’s the intent.
AT: You’re also working on Gotham, P.D. with Terrance Winter How are the series and the film going to overlap and connect?
MR: For
me, the idea of this story was a story in which Gotham, which has this
sort of depth of corruption—and then the idea that we could actually do a
series that is going deeper into an aspect of it, which in this case is
the corrupt police department, the corrupt inner workings of the city
and the way we’re going to do the series, which, I mean, I’m quite, I’m
Terrance Winter is just an incredible writer. So the idea that we got
him to do this is literally a dream. And the idea is, we go back to Year
One. And Year One is the beginning of the emergence, it’s the first
appearance of this mass vigilante that starts to unsettle the city. And
you start to see the story through the point of view of these corrupt
cops and one in particular. And the story is actually a battle for his
soul. And he’s a cop over generations. And the history of corruption in
Gotham is enormous and goes back many years. And the story is like, as
you realize that there’s this myth building in the background, you’re
actually in a new place where you’ve never seen these characters
before—some of which we’ll touch on that you may have seen from the
comics, but others totally new. Then you can go down an avenue and go
into detail that you couldn’t do to movie. And to go into these sort of
rich places and meet entirely new characters that Terrance is going to
create. I’m incredibly excited about it.
AT: How much say did the actors have in the design of their costumes?
MR:
You know, actually quite a bit. We have of course, uh, an incredible
costume designer, Jacqueline Durran. And the Batsuit was designed by
Glyn Dillon, and they’re geniuses. It’s great to work with them. But one
of the things that’s really important is being able to work with the
actors. Like, Rob had a very important part in designing the suit in
that he had to be able to wear it, he had to be able to fight in it. And
one of the things about this Batsuit is that it is it’s very practical.
The whole idea is that he’s made it himself. And so, we needed to be
able to sort of see how it would fit on him in these ways that he could
move, but also look like it was something that was still evolving. And
even the idea of the story he’s in Year Two. So he’s been wearing it.
So, like, he goes every night looking for trouble. So you look at his
cowl and you can actually see there are gashes in it. And all of that
detail was an incredibly exciting sort of dialogue between me and the
costume designers, and then having Rob involved in. So yeah, I mean, the
actors have a lot to do because you always do a dialogue with everyone
so that we can arrive at the thing that feels the most grounded, the
most honest and the most character-based.
AT: I just hope everybody got pockets.
MR:
You know what? I will tell you this: Rob actually talked to Christian
Bale and Christian Bale was like, “Just make sure you’re going to be
able to relieve yourself.” So all of that—it was actually part of what
was important to build in too. It’s like, “Okay, he needs to be able to
put it on, but he also needs to be able to live as a human being.”
FAN
QUESTION: I believe that one of the most important things about the
whole Batman mythology—it’s not just the characters such as Batman and
the Joker it’s Gotham city itself. What should fans expect to see from
Gotham City in this film?
MR: You’re
absolutely right. Like it’s just as important as any of the Rogues’
Gallery. The nature of what this place is, and the history of it is
critically important to our story. And one of the things that I really
wanted to do, because it is the center of this story—especially the
history of corruption in the city—was that I wanted to present it in a
way that was really fleshed out. I wanted it to feel like an American
city you’d never been to. I mean, other iterations have, you know,
obviously the Burton one had very, very theatrical, beautiful, beautiful
sets. And Nolan had the version that he created in a Batman Begins. And
that was a particular thing. And then parts of Chicago and parts of
Pittsburgh. And what we’re trying to do is create a version of it that
you haven’t seen before, so some of the locations that we’ve chosen—the
idea is to take, let’s say we have like a Gotham Square. So that’s like
Times Square. Now, if we shot it in Times Square, then you’d be like, I
guess Gotham is New York. But in our case, it’s actually going to be
Liverpool. And the idea is to go to Liverpool, where there’s all the
sort of the foundation of the Gothic architecture, and then add all of
the more modern structures and through CG. But in a way that you’re
going to, when you see the movie—now that I’ve blown it, of course, I’ve
told you what it is—you’ll be like, “Hey, where’s that city? Where did
they shoot?” And so the aspect of Gotham, and realizing it, has been,
for me, and one of the great pleasures in getting to mount the movie.
AT: How do the the citizens of Gotham perceive the vigilante?
MR:
Oh, that’s a good question. because it’s still early, and because he is
a vigilante, which means he takes the law to his own hands…. I mean,
if you were in a city and there was a guy who dressed up as a bat and
showed up out of the shadows and sometimes confronted those people and
beat them up because he felt what they were doing was wrong, so that he
could sort of put the fear of God in them about the crimes that they’re
committing, I think we would wonder, “Well, gee. That guy sounds a
little dangerous.” He’s not yet the vision of the character that he
becomes, where he becomes a symbol of hope for the city. He’s early in
the trajectory. And so, they’re afraid of him, frankly. He’s kind of a
growing legend. I think there are some people who are wondering, “Does
he exist?” “Well, how exactly does he exist?” And that legend is
building day by day—and it has been since he made his first appearance,
about a year and a half ago, as we’re in Year Two. So, yeah, the public
is afraid of him. I mean, that’s one of the things I think that he will
confront in the course of the story and that Rob has to sort of deal
with him playing the character, which is the idea of how he’s perceived.
FQ: What made Robert Pattison the right choice to play Batman?
MR:
I mean, the thing about Robert Pattinson is he’s an incredible actor. I
feel like the work that he’s done in the last, I don’t know, six years
has been incredible. A friend of mine made a movie called Lost City of Z,
and Rob appeared in that movie. And I was like, “Who is that guy?” He
had just such charisma. And he, Rob in the movie has this incredible
beard. And you’re like, “Who is that?” And it’s Rob in The Rover, and Rob in Good Time.
He is like a chameleon. And he is so, he’s just such a gifted actor.
And he’s been working on his craft in this really incredible way. And he
also happens to be a tremendous, passionate sort of fan of Batman, the
way that I am. And so it was an incredible thing to be able to connect
with him and to share our excitement about the character and to work
with him. I mean, you know, he looks like Batman, but more than
anything, he has the soul of someone, I think, that can play a Batman.
AT: How long did it take to build the Batsuit, Batmobile, and Batbike. And did you have to build a set to create the Batcave?
MR: You
know, it’s funny, it’s like stepping into your childhood, in a certain
way. Because you know, obviously the first thing you have to do is you
have to craft a story that you think is worthy of the character. But
then—once you’ve done that and it becomes like, “Oh yeah, we’re making
this movie”—one of the things you have to do is, you have to design a
Batsuit, you have to design a Batmobile, you have to have a Batcave, you
have to have a Batbikes, all of the things that he’s going to have.
For me, that’s been one of the exciting things. And that happened even
before we were quite done with the last iteration of the script. We’d
already gone through passes and it was quite clear what the vision of
the world would be. While I’m writing, I actually already had a
production designer on. And so he would be sending, as I’m writing
scenes…. I might send stuff to James and he’s like, “Oh, well, what
about this for a Batcave?” And so, yes, we have to build this set for
it. But I think it’s an incredibly original and different set. I think
it’s going to be really fun for the audience to discover what version of
exactly this Batcave is going to be. The Batmobile and the Batsuit,
they took a long time. You know, Glyn came on quite early and we worked
in the designing of it, again, as I was writing…. I’d say we spent,
easily, a year to do the Batsuit. and then to get into the Batmobile.
And that, of course, that part is a dream. I mean, you know, the idea of
getting to do your own version of the Batmobile, you’re just kind of
like, “Uh, what?” That part is the incredible candy, right? Like, the
telling of a story is the hard work, and trying to make sure that you’re
doing the right thing. And then when you get to dive into the idea of
this car, that again feels connected to this version of the character, a
grounded version of the character—this is something that he built, and
to try and look at those kind of rough scenes and imagine how that
works…. It’s been incredible sort of gift to be able to do that.
AT: What will be the difference between this Batman and other incarnations from previous films?
MR:
I think, you know, as we said, it’s not an origin tale, and you’re
meeting him in the early days. And, for me, what’s really important
about this iteration is that, you know, a lot of the other stories are
very much about how he had to master his fear, and master himself, in
order to become Batman. And that in that Batman state, he’s sort of in
his best self. And I think, for me, what was exciting was not doing
that—not doing the origin, not doing what we’d seen done so beautifully
in other movies, but instead to meet him in the middle of this
criminological experiment, to see him in the becoming of Batman, and to
see him make mistakes as Batman, and see him grow and fail and be
heroic, do all of the things that we associate with Batman, but in a way
that felt very human and very flawed. The biggest fantasy, of course,
as a kid, would have been to be Batman. And so, the idea of putting the
audience in the shoes of that character and making the audience feel the
way that he feels—I think that, to me, I hope, is what’s different
about what we’re doing…. And then, of course, the other things that
are from the earlier history of the comics: like him being the world’s
greatest detective, and how he got there. You know, those things have
been touched on, but I don’t know that they’ve been as central to the
plot as they are in this particular Batman. So there’s a lot of things I
hope that will be totally different.
AT: What’s one deep cut fans might be surprised to see has inspired The Batman?
MR:
Because I wanted to get into the mindset of the character—and I wanted
to think of the psychology—for me, I think one of the cool deep-dive
ones was Darwyn Cooke’s Ego. He’s confronting the beast that is
Batman, and there’s a kind of duality. I mean, there’s a lot in what I
was trying to do in the story about him confronting the shadow side of
himself—the degree to which you have self knowledge, you’re able to
understand your motivations, but he’s broken, Batman. So, while he’s
doing all of these things for the reasons that he thinks is right, and
that they have a heroic sort of grounding in them, there’s also many
things that are driven by the parts of himself he doesn’t yet know. And
so, I would say that that kind of sort of psychological…shadow side,
that subversion of it is very much connected to that vision from Darwyn
Cooke, from Ego.
AT: What non-Batman movieS served as an inspiration for The Batman?
MR:
Oh! Well, because the movie is a detective story, because it is a
thriller in the, sort of, the cop world, and because it’s about
corruption, we’re treating this Batman story as if this could have
happened. I mean, the idea is that, as I said, Batman doesn’t have this
sort of the ability to have sort of superheroic powers. He just has
superheroic focus and superheroic drive. And so, for me, a lot of movies
like, like Chinatown was a key one because, in Chinatown,
J.J. Gittes is investigating that sort of series of crimes that were
part of that story. He discovers the depth of corruption in Los Angeles.
And so, in that way it’s like a classic noir…. The series of murders
that Batman is investigating are very much in that mode. So Chinatown
was a really big one. And that idea of that kind of gritty,
flawed…this humanity of it, that was very much inspired by those kinds
of movies, by like French Connection and other, sort of, cop movies like that. I would say even a movie like Taxi Driver,
and the description of a place and very much getting inside of
somebody’s head. And I guess a lot of really sort of ’70s
street-grounded stories.
AT: One of the exciting things
about Batman, as a character, is that he’s so layered and so intense
that you can dip into his life at different points and none of these
different characters, these different iterations of Batman or Gotham or
the entire kind of Batman universe tread on the ground that others have
already covered.
MR: Oh, totally. I
mean, for me, that’s exciting. Like, the idea of the history of Batman.
Like, there just the idea of the actors who’ve played Batman. Like, Adam
West, when I was a kid. Like, Adam West, that was like when I was five
and watching him as Batman, like that blew my mind. I wanted to be
Batman so badly. And then I remember when I was a little bit older and
Keaton came onto the scene with the Burton movie. I was so excited that
they were going to do a theatrical version of that. And then the
iterations that have followed, like so many incredible people. I
mean, Bale was amazing. I mean, incredible— everything that Chris Nolan
did was astonishing. And I personally, I love Ben Affleck as Batman. I
thought he was incredible, an iteration, again, that we hadn’t seen. In
fact, I’m really excited because I know Zack is going to be doing the
new Justice League cut of his that he didn’t get to do originally, and
now he’s getting to do it, and I can’t wait to see that. So, for me…to
be a part of history like that is an incredible thing…. It’s kind of
like the comics, you know, when you look at the comics: There are so
many iterations of Batmans. There are so many different people’s
Batmans. There’s the Neal Adams Batman. Of course, there’s Bob Kane and
Bill Finger’s Batman. And there’s Frank Miller’s Batman. There are so
many Batman’s. And so, to me, that’s one of the joys of being in the
kind of comic book world is to try and say, “Hey, what can we do to put
our spin on this so that people can find a new way of looking at that
character that they love.” It’s, like, this strange thing of wanting to
be able to find a way to come at it in some new way. And yet it has to
be connected to that thing that you love. And that, for me—being part of
that history and being part of all of that—is sort of almost
unbelievable.