Yorgos Lanthimos and Willem Dafoe say Kinds Of Kindness is a funny movie, actually

Just months after Poor Things made a splash in the U.S., Yorgos Lanthimos has got much of the gang back together for Kinds Of Kindness, a three-part anthology film sometimes referred to as a “triptych fable.” Whether that term is completely accurate is up for debate—Lanthimos might and did push back against it—but there is no doubt that the collection is macabre, disturbing, and, often, very, very funny. And with the reunion of Poor Things stars Emma Stone, Willem Dafoe, and Margaret Qualley and the new very game additions of Jesse Plemmons and Hong Chau, this new film feels like the ultimate Yorgos Lanthimos picture.

The three sections of Kinds Of Kindness are loosely connected by R.M.F., a character who exists in the background and the only one who appears in every part of the film. The rest of the actors play different roles in each, but every vignette explores themes of power, control, and social conditioning. The resulting morals feel both old-fashioned and contemporary, not unlike (in this writer’s opinion) the twisted, wicked short stories of Ottessa Moshfegh.

Speaking with The A.V. Club, director Lanthimos and actor Dafoe walk us through the discourse, the comedy, and how a song called “Brand New Bitch” became Kinds Of Kindness’ curtain call.

Yorgos Lanthimos: I mean, I’ve heard about it. It’s very funny. In the beginning, I was like, “What?” And then I was like “Okay, great.” So they consider Poor Things a mainstream thing, which is incredibly good. It is a film I was trying to make for 12 years and nobody wanted to make it, so now it’s a mainstream success, so that gives me hope that there will be more chances to do films like that. That people can appreciate them. And then of course I understand how it appears to people that we’re going back to something, or because I am working again with Efthimis [Filippou] or whatever, but for me it was never like that. You know, we started writing this script as soon as we finished Killing Of A Sacred Deer, I was making other things in between, he was making other things, and, you know, we just found time after Poor Things. Specifically when Poor Things was still in post-production, and we’re still doing the effects, we finished the script of Kinds Of Kindness and had the chance to go and film it. For me, it’s just like a continuous journey and Efthimis is a very good friend of mine, and I always work with him as soon as we finish something. So to me it’s just like doing different things that I’m interested in, and of course they all take time, so it appears that for a time I’m preoccupied with a certain thing—and that’s true just because of the practicality of it—and then I go and do the next thing.

AVC: Because you did film this so close to Poor Things, and you, Willem, were obviously in that, with Emma Stone also… I’ve heard a lot about your rehearsal process and how it’s a lot of theater games and very physical. What was the rehearsal for this like, where I assume you already had some rapport?

Willem Dafoe: I did, from Poor Things. And Yorgos did a similar thing, but much reduced, in a funny way, but equally helpful. It really makes a company in a short time. It lets everybody get their stuff out, be a little ridiculous so you don’t worry about being ridiculous later. Not so much here, because I had done it before in a more extensive way for Poor Things, but I found it really helpful to get to know [Yorgos], because he’s leading these theater exercises. How he tweaks them and how he leads them gives you some sense of a good call-and-response rapport that you wanna have with a director. And it’s not so much that you’re actually talking about things, but just to see how he rolls, you know? So it’s very helpful. But it felt familiar. Even the first time I did it, it felt familiar, because I know those theater games. I’m a guy that’s been doing theater for many years, but it’s got his heavy stamp on it because how you conduct them is the value of the games, not the games themselves.

AVC: Right. And the characters, I think in all your films, talk in a very distinct way. Kind of stilted, kind of flat, and it’s the physicality that is the eye-grabbing thing. At this point, do you read a script that he gives you in his voice, or, Yorgos, do you write with his voice in mind for the character?

WD: I know the answer to both of those and he didn’t write it for me, because he’s been writing it for ten years. [Laughs] I read the script and I think about actions all the time and the text a little bit, you know, whether I like the language, but I’m drawn to people and situations and doing things. I never think about what stuff means. I’m really good reading the script because I see these opportunities to do these things that, to some degree, the audience experiences. They feel real, they’re rooted, but at the same time, they’re tweaked enough that they aren’t recognizable. So you never get to that place of total comfort, where you say, “I know what that is,” and then you kinda settle in. It’s always a little off-balance, and I think that’s a great place to be as an actor.

AVC: What kind of direction do you give your actors? Do you have a fairly heavy hand with giving direction during the take?

YL: Not at all, I think.

WD: I concur.

YL: He agrees. [Laughs] Because I, you know… First of all, I believe in the process before getting on set, and although, as Willem said, this time we didn’t have that much time to rehearse, still, it was a lot of the same actors. We knew each other, they knew each other, that was kind of established. I think newcomers like Jesse and Hong and Mamoudou—the other actors being bonded kind of helps them get into the group easier, in a way. That’s quite important. Everybody’s kind of in the same mind space and appreciates the same things and feels comfortable with each other. And then when we’re on set, I know that, first of all, I’ve chosen great people, I’ve chosen people that get what I do. And then I also enjoy allowing all their stuff to enter into a whole world, what they’ve thought about the character and what they’ve created, and I just stand back and watch as much as I can, as an audience member.

Just having in mind an overall tone of the film or certain kinds of aesthetic choices that I make and wanna make, and just try to tweak what they do according to that so that I feel that it takes place within one entity instead of each person doing their own thing or having thought something that might be valid but doesn’t necessarily belong to what we’re doing right now. My direction is basically very little things, and mostly practical things, you know, like “faster,” “quieter,” “louder.” “Instead of sitting there, why don’t you walk around?” Just finding things, again, like mostly physical, in terms of pace and tone that might help bring the material to the right path. Not that I actually know what the right path is. That’s why we also try and have variations of what we do in order to fine tune the tone during the edit.

AVC: You also work with, like, the best actors, so that helps, I’m sure.

YL: Exactly.

AVC: On the topic of tone, the three vignettes felt a bit fairy tale-esque to me, in the way of the Brothers Grimm fairy tales that were incredibly violent and twisted. I’m wondering if that’s something that was in either of your heads—the mythological, or modern fables.

YL: (To Willem) Did you think that? Because we were not thinking that when we were writing.

WD: No, not really.

YL: Didn’t occur to you? Us being Greeks and everything? Nothing?

WD: No.

YL: [Laughs]

AVC: Across films, too… in Poor Things, Willem’s character is often called “God,” and in this, there’s very heavy authority across the three segments—

YL: Willem is actually God in this one. [Laughs]

AVC: I see a lot of religious allegory in your films. Is that something you like to play with?

YL: You’re right. I don’t necessarily think of it as religious, but maybe as this societal construct that utilizes faith in order to be able to construct some kind of narrative. A lot of times it’s religion or cult or any kind of other structure in society that is based on those kinds of notions.

AVC: Would you call this film a comedy? There’s funny moments, but do you mean this to be a funny movie?

WD: It’s a funny movie. [Laughs]

YL: So if it’s a funny movie, I guess it’s a comedy.

AVC: I guess there’s a difference between funny as in a joke and funny as in tone across the project.

WD: I don’t know, so much of the humor comes out of a certain kind of recognition. And sometimes you’re looking at stuff that’s… you can watch it, it feels a little skewed. It’s real enough to be credible. It’s not totally invented and fantasy. It could exist, but it’s not of your experience. So you’re not folding in with this kind of recognition sensibility. You’re watching and you’re saying, “What the hell is this?” And then something occurs to you. You bring something to it from your life, and you have this epiphany about something that you considered a fact is not a fact anymore. You have a different kind of consideration.

That in general is the power of his movies. When this thing can make you shift, and make you lift a veil of that social conditioning, that’s what’s the most exciting. That moment that happens is a comic thing. It’s like a wake up. It’s like, “Oh my God! I’m free” or “Oh my God! What an idiot I am.” And that’s where the comedy comes. It’s not like a pointing—I don’t think Yorgos points at anything. He really doesn’t. For me, that’s important, the same way it’s important for an actor not to point at things. It’s, you know, being invested in something, and having a different view of it. And that can be one of the greatest powers of the art of cinema.

AVC: That’s where I get some of the myth stuff from.

WD: Sure. You know, it is elevated. Not to be snotty about your comment about the fable—it just hadn’t occurred to me. Because when you say Grimm tale, I think of… this is so contemporary. It leans on so many things that are modern language. It plays with those. But you’re right, it’s elevated, and it’s kind of pushed in a direction. And I think it’s important that—you know, sometimes people think that’s kind of a cool perversion, but it isn’t. It’s trying to get to something. It’s a curiosity, at least for me. It’s a kind of search that I enjoy.

AVC: I did wanna touch… the music in this is really funny, too. That also contributes to the tone. “Sweet Dreams” at the beginning and then “Brand New Bitch” by COBRAH, which I immediately saved upon leaving the theater and now listen to on the treadmill. How did you choose the songs for this?

YL: Um, well, “Brand New Bitch…” [Laughs] I knew I was looking for a piece of music that would go with Emily [Stone]’s dancing. I had witnessed her dancing like that on the set of Poor Things at one point in our downtime and I said, “This needs to be in a film.” And then when I was compiling all the stuff for Kinds Of Kindness, I knew that I wanted her to dance at the end of a story, and I just did research and I listened to a lot of music and that stood out. And I sent some of it to Emily as well, and we chose that. It’s an improvised dance of her own making. And it was really fun to do.

On the other hand, “Sweet Dreams” was more of a later addition. I thought of it during the editing. I wanted to use a piece of music that would kind of signify RMF’s coming and going and recognize him as the same person during his accident. Again, I just researched songs, you know, from when I was growing up, and RMF is of a different generation too. It’s listening to a lot of old songs, iconic songs, and this one clicked because of the lyrics as well, that strike a balance of having some kind of relation to the film but without being expositional or explaining everything too much or pointing at anything, like Willem says. It just felt like the right piece of music.